When it comes to biblical based teachings, some held for hundreds of years, does the premise of the thing taught hold up merely because it can be supported by scriptures? There are three that readily come to mind; however there could be many others. The three referred to are the teaching of a certain “faithful and discrete slave”, That the “144,000” mentioned in revelation are a group of men taken from earth to go to heaven to rule over the earth, and that God exists as a “Trinity”. All three of these teachings, or doctrines, rely on the belief of those holding to them to give them impetus.

The bible mentions a “faithful and discrete or wise servant”, but there isn’t any evidence to suggest that the mention is more than a rhetorical mention, once you remove the premise that it is more than that. None of the parables or prophecies, related to the supposed premise, show that such a thing is necessary to their fulfillment. While it has to be admitted that such a thing is possible, it isn’t necessary to the understanding of the principals related to those verses, or the verses used to support it.

The next one, the premise of 144,000 men taken from among mankind to rule as kings over the earth, also is bereft of direct evidence, and relies on the support of the “faithful and discrete slave” premise for validity, and understanding other prophetic statements in the bible as applying in a certain way. While again, admittedly such an understanding is possible, there isn’t any “stand-alone” evidence to suggest that this is the way those illustrative references in the book of Revelation are to be understood.

Last, but not least is the doctrine of the “Trinity”. This one has been argued up and down the pages of history. The very fact that such an argument has taken place, and is still taking place, shows that there is no direct biblical evidence supporting it. It relies on acceptance of the premise, and then many bible verses are used to support that premise. No where does the bible say that such an understanding is required to be saved. No where does the bible say that there are three persons in a “Godhead”. All of the other things believed about a supposed “Trinity” are likewise reliant on the premise, to have any substance.

All of the verses used in support of these teachings can be understood in another way, with no stretch of the imagination necessary. I haven’t used bible verses to support the “premise” of this post, I’ll leave it up to those concerned enough to post in an opposing manner to this "premise", to show why it is in error. I would be grateful if the straw could be removed from my eyes, and I could see these teachings as clearly as their adherents.

sidgi

I was thinking a lot recently about the reality of eternal life. As a human, with human thoughts, its all a bit beyond my comprehension.

To live forever, not actually die or suffer pain, get on with all people, not live in fear for your loved ones welfare.... with my one dimensional knowledge of what its like in this world with this worlds history, it does seems a bit of wishful thinking.

Then, I recall that this was NOT the original plan. The earth was to be populated and looked after by humans. After Adam sinned, whatever was to be, never came to fruition, and our relationship with the Creator became so very different from what it should have been.

As i read the Bible these days, I have to keep taking in to account that what we have, what we know, and what we do, has NO real connection with what was planned for us. The societal structures of how we live around the world in cities, group dwellings etc all has its base in protection from other groups and economic factors. Marriages are based on civil and legal postulates along with education for our children and the whole work environment.

We dwell in a world alienated from the Creator. All religion, even those claiming to worship in a a "Christian" manner, are false in their intent and actions.

There is nothing we have or are familiar with that we can with any certainty be sure was part of his plan for our living arrangements.

The Bible was written for life in this world. The story of mans inception, and why they lost the right to have eternal life, the history of the Jewish people, the commands what God views as important,  following and working along with the Creator is all in there...but not the direction that life would have taken if.. Adam had done better.

We live in a world that is full of the results of Adams failure and spirit creature involvement. It has been handed over to the instigator if the whole Eden incident, and man has been left to himself.

Yet, while withdrawing from direct involvement with mankind, there was provision made for the future ending of death, and the permanent return to the original plan. This to be completed after sorting out the problem caused by his heavenly created son in questioning Gods right to rule.

So getting back to here and now, I realize more and more that our relationship with the Creator is based solely on a "gift" basis. His kindness allows us to find him, to pray to him, to worship him. It is not mandatory, and it has no strings attached simply because, all the choices are made by us. He supplied us a collection of writings to "discover" him. The more we read, the more we find out the truths of existence. Bit by bit, we come to see that we exist solely by virtue of his mercy, and what happens here is the occurrences and circumstances that befall all mankind, such as life and death.

We need to do one thing in order to accept the gift that he gave in having Jesus come to earth and die. We need to accept our powerlessness and worthlessness in the face of all that has happened,

Embracing worthlessness is a strange expression, but in the context of everlasting life in view... it is the only thing we can do. There is nothing we are owed or deserve. Our worth as sinners is that the results of sin are death... so once we embrace that we are totally in Gods mercy, then nothing else counts except to embrace our worthlessness and submit to his will. This phrase "embrace your worthlessness, came about in a discussion with Sidgi one day and the deeper meaning of it took a grip in my heart.

For those of us who believe that God reveals his plans through dreams and interpretation, chosen people, religions, spirit messages in these days, it may come as a shock that the Bible is the only means that understanding can be gleaned. Lots of study, lots of research.

The entire MESSAGE is in the Bible. There are no deeper revelations to individuals.. in looking at 1st Corinthians
13: 8
 .............But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

In reading that, while it can have deeper meaning elsewhere, I see it clearly that all the gifts in men ceased as the purpose and completion of the knowledge became more readily available. The "perfection" is available in the scriptures to be read and the need for speaking in tongues and other spirit bestowed gifts are no longer necessary due to the full picture so to speak being instantly available to all mankind.

Time for coffee.

Thanks for the response.

I examined myself hard on my bed for a couple of nights and finally came to a realization regarding being an ex JW that can affect some of us, and also where my concerns lay and why.

Letting go of the network that has surrounded us over a long period of life is not easy. The JWs embraced and intertwined itself into our very lives like a family. Our reasons for leaving vary from person to person and in the end, it is a wrench to leave or  be disfellowshipped and lose the friendship of all the people we have known.

However, for those that left, and for those that left for the "right" reasons, (not that any reason for leaving where falseness is taught is a wrong reason) and by that I mean those that still are inclined to "find" Jehovah and serve him regardless, it is a whole new world of heartache and loneliness out here.

Once done where is a person to go? The reality is that all churches teach falseness regarding the scriptures therefore to a large extent, we ARE alone.

What I have found over the time Ive been studying, is that I DID spend vast amounts of time alone, just me and the scriptures. My intent in studying was firstly to make sure I had it correct in my reasoning for NOT going back to the Jws and secondly to see if I could find if there was a way to worship Jehovah as an individual who was truly alone.

The "comfort" I drew from the scriptures was the knowledge that what I had done, was motivated sincerely by the disquiet I had internally over differentials between the assertions of the governing body and what the scriptures really said. Once I accepted the disparity, I had to choose.

I spent time reconsidering whole sections of the Bible as to whether or not what I took from the Jws was in harmony with reality. In the main, excepting anything to do with dates, self applied prophetic explanations pertaining to the governing body, the rest was pretty much ok. The teachings, morals and principles I had were in harmony with the Bible....

I asked night after night in prayer for understanding....for direction. For years.

My personal life at this time also took a downturn, the recession took care of my business, my health took a beating and my circumstances changed 180 degrees. At one time I faced total misery as to the future. I recall praying and saying, "well I came this far Jehovah, I still dont know the answers but if this is it.. Ive done the best I can and will try to continue whatever happens." Within the hour of being faced with the blank wall of no where to go... the problem was resolved. My Father in the heavens allowed me to be tested and then stepped in to ease the situation.

I was also blessed with individuals in my life to discuss things with regarding the Bible and spiritual matters. My prayers for enlightenment have been answered by these associations, because the Bible and Gods purpose and thoughts are the things discussed. I dont always agree or accept some of the conclusions reached with regard to understandings of some of the scriptures....but the lack of is minor and certainly never a lack of acceptance of the overall message or theme. It is more that it doesnt "quite" seem correct in my mind, but is always on the right lines of thought but not yet completed or seen in the same way as others.

So when faced with individuals who prefer to seek their own counsel and thinking, and in effect decline to share in "discussions" but will take individuals and feed them knowledge of their thinking.. and describe it as Spirit led in dreams and earnest prayer, I have to question their grasp of the Bible and secondly their grasp on reality. They forget we are on the same side, or really.. they dont want to listen.

So, I realize, that i have unconsciously attributed to these people, a diagnosis of mild religious mania, and a distancing from them in spiritual association. Maybe one day...they will see the wisdom of Jehovahs words about association.

Jesus said the association of two or more had his presence.... not one.

Additional thought: I wish to state CLEARLY here that in associating with others, I am NOT taking the high ground that "my knowledge" or "our knowledge" is in any way superior to anyone else, just that the Bible based ensuing discussions will allow for food for thought. Sometimes our basis for thinking a certain way is not grounded in a clear understanding of scripture. Its happened to me many times and Im grateful for the re alignment of understanding.

while your words were pointed, and obviously directed at an individual, rather than the members of this board in general, there are a few things that everyone could benefit from. The "getting yourself out of the way" comment, is one in particular.

Often we hold beliefs that seem reasonable, and we hold on to them because they seem self evident. We have taken them for granted for years, and they form the basis for our outlook in general. They are so much of our basis for understanding so many things, that we never question them. We take the stance; "Everyone believes this, why should I question it"? It is so much of our background or upbringing, that we often never even think of correcting it. They so much fit the premise of our overall belief system, we wouldn't even think of questioning the correctness of them. But is that the course recommended by the bible?

The principals contained in some verses, if applied in an overall way, not just concerning the actual circumstances of their occurrence, can be very beneficial. Let's look at just a few of them, To see what else might be learned.

(John 3:3) . . .“Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

if someone is born again, isn't that a wiping of the slate clean, and starting all over again? Why would anyone value any of their old thoughts to the point of carrying them through to this re-birth, no matter how basic, no matter how accepted by all around them?

(Hebrews 2:1) . . .That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things heard by us, that we may never drift away.

(Romans 12:1-2) 12 Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason. 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

(2 Corinthians 10:5) . . .For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;

This is just a few scriptures, and each one is tested according to their reaction to these, and to many others as they try and understand the bible's message, and apply it in their lives. When you read these things, do you take them for granted, or do you truly try and understand them from God's point of view, instead of your own. It is prideful to hold on to your own thoughts, in the face of greater wisdom. Even in things seemingly unimportant.

The individual addressed in the previous post wasn't content to just hold on to some minor understandings, about the way things should be understood. He was having grandiose thoughts about how he could understand spiritual things in a way unburdened by intense study, and long hours of thought and talking with others, to get differing points of view. Sure, we are all judged in the end by our selves, but the bibles message is that wisdom is with the multitude of counselors. John's message is to test the inspired expressions to see if they originate with God, isn't that true even if that inspiration arises within ourselves?

(Jeremiah 17:9) 9 “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?

sidgi

Proverbs 18:1 makes very clear a fact about humans.

One isolating himself will seek [his own] selfish longing; against all practical wisdom he will break forth.

When a person removes himself from contact with others, there is little to occupy the thoughts other than personal interests. Depending on the nature of the person and the philosophical bent of mind, the person will eventually begin to make a false assumption on a certain matter and from then on, the consequential thought patterns will grow and continue from the original false premise into something that is either stupid or dangerous, both to himself or others eventually. There will be a break with common sense and reality.

I have noticed over the years, many persons that leave an organized religion, disassociate themselves from further involvement with any spiritual or religious discussions and form their own concept as to who God is and what this or that means. It goes deeper and further than just maintaining a balance of reading the Bible and attempting to live life as a follower of Christs example. These individuals come to form a self made image of God and somehow manage to twist and contort scripture to fit their own wisdom and personal desires. They end up making themselves the arbiter of Gods word and begin to feel that God reveals himself to them in the Spirit and before you know it, gently remove themselves from common sense and the real wisdom that comes from above.

It is hard to tell someone that they are in the grip of a mild mental impairment and require realignment to bring them back into contact with the Bible, Gods word and HOW information and wisdom and insight is received.

Proverbs 15:22

Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

It takes much more than our own thoughts and self inclined favouritism to understand the Bible.

Anyhow, the counsel is there for those that can get themselves out the way of themselves.

As we say in Ireland, You cant help the helpless.

I have been thinking about these comments all day. Firstly, it triggers a life long love of words and biblical philosophical leaning, and secondly it brought about a wave of long abandoned thoughts and feelings.

As to my motive for writing this? I don’t know. I do know of late I’ve been looking for a catharsis in my life. Perhaps wanting a clean out of old ideas, removal of certain innate human weaknesses, eradication of those fears that wake you in the darkest part of the night which somehow seem to be shared with the very essence of our existence, and hence all mankind at some point of their life, at some stage or another come face to face with their mortality.

To establish truth per se, one must have a grasp on what truth is. In reading the writings of men, especially post modern revisionist thinkers, one would think truth is linked to relativism and pragmatism. A simple read of the philosophical nature of both schools of thought will lead the reader to see the self defeating nature of both in relation to truth.

Truth itself has only one definition. Truth is what corresponds to reality. Once a truth is established, it is what it is, move on with whatever you know to be true and build on that.

Here are a few questions to ask yourself. Each one has a multitude of answers, some in the yes/no region and then….”Why?”

Why pick the Bible over any other professed Holy book?
Is the “Christian” faith true?
Which denomination of “Christianity” is the true one?
Do the teachings of the denomination you picked follow the Bible accurately?
Is there an eternal Hell for sinners?
Is Jesus God?
Are you once saved always saved?
Is God using an earthly religion in these final days to spread his message?

Are your answers based on upbringing, personal reasons, friendship with others or reality based according to truth or truth based according to reality?

My mother taught me from an early age to respect the Creator. My indoctrination of Bible teachings was from the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I had no way of knowing what was truth, without doing an independent study of both the teachings of the J.W’s and the Bible to see if they matched. My early days of knowing truth therefore were prohibited by virtue of acceptance without a reality based check. I accepted on the basis of trust, which in itself is blind without validation. My trust was either true or false, and either way, it mattered not to what truth is, for truth will be truth despite a contrary viewpoint. Truth and reality exist always independent of words or feelings or convictions.

The flat earth Society promotes a deeply held conviction that the earth is not round. The reality is that the earth is round. The conviction of the flat earthers, however sincerely held, is incorrect and in essence, a lie.

I believed that the Jehovah’s Witness leaders known as the Governing Body were appointed by God as his visible organization here on earth in the final days. Why did I believe it? Did the Bible teach it? Did the history of the WTBTS merit such a claim? Was the claim real?

I don’t like reality much. It rocks my world with harsh responsibilities and encroachment on my self created delusional existence. I have to face something that I might have to act on and actually face criticism for. However, either I face it now and deal with it, or ignore it and suffer internally for a long time and have to face it later. Either way, I WILL have to deal with it.

I didn’t like reading the Bible for the longest time in the 90’s because with each opening of the scriptures I began to have more questions than answers. I was faced with dilemmas daily. What was going to happen if I began to have issues with Organizational teachings and the Bible? 

The reality was and is, it didn’t matter. TRUTH was truth and all I had to do was make a decision to accept it, or not. Truth is so independent of our choices it isn’t funny. Truth exists whether we see it, endorse it or abandon it, there is no changing truth. It is.

Jehovah God claims to be truth. I can accept it or not. If I don’t, its no big deal, it wont alter the fact he is truth. It only alters the whole “acceptance” of mine for the Bible, for his words, for the existence of Jesus and the sacrifice and that Jesus rose from the dead. If I don’t believe it, and it’s a lie, then we might as well pack it all in now. However, it would be extremely foolish of me to accept parts of the Bible and not others. It would be foolish of me to accept words of men in explanation of Bible passages when on reading, there are not the limitations placed on mankind that they would have me believe.

With the burden of truth, comes the reality of what we must endure before the words of the Bible are brought to completion. In accepting the Bible as true, I committed myself to a rocky walk in reality. But even if I rejected it, it wouldn’t affect the truth, only my acceptance of it.

It sucks. Everything I believed in had to change. It wasn’t real.

I don’t worry about dates and times and prophetic this and that. I wouldn’t even know when the last days are supposed to be… I know we have some signs and portents that MIGHT indicate we are in them, but…. It will happen when it happens. The truth is, the reality is, it will happen when Jehovah has decreed.

WHY do I walk the path I follow when its so hard? I guess by now you know my answer….my response to it doesn’t matter, truth is reality and I have no say in it. It just is.

I accept it, Build on it, and move on.

Believe what you will…. It doesn’t affect truth. Only your life and acceptability to God.

Why, you say, would anyone bother to write such a post? What is the motive? Well, actually, the motive is to see if it strikes a resonant chord in anyone. Or maybe a dissonant chord, for that matter. To see if a discussion could be started. When you read something, study something, examine something, with an educational goal in mind, do you ever consider the fact that the presenter's motive in life might be selfish? If it is, then even if the information is accurate in fact, it will be slanted because of an errant motive, a motive lacking pureness.

I'm sure that most reading the first post in this thread will know that I was referring to the bible as the source of unselfish standards. If you are going to get the most value for your effort, in understanding it's information, your motive has to be in harmony with it's author. The bible itself points this out.

(John 5:39-40) 39 “YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. 40 And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life.

(Acts 17:10-11) 10 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be‧roe′a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes‧sa‧lo‧ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. . .

(Matthew 18:3-4) . . .: “Truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU turn around and become as young children, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens. 4 Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one that is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens. . .

(Matthew 13:44) 44 “The kingdom of the heavens is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid; and for the joy he has he goes and sells what things he has and buys that field. . .

(Matthew 13:45-46) 45 “Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a traveling merchant seeking fine pearls. 46 Upon finding one pearl of high value, away he went and promptly sold all the things he had and bought it.

What was God's motive in having the bible written? If you don't know that, how could you understand it's purpose? Sure you can get many valuable things from it, but if you don't understand the originating motive, how can you really get the benefit that God intended? As the scriptures cited here show, along with many, many others, proper motive is necessary to even want to understand the true purpose of the bible's message.

(Proverbs 2:1-9) 2 My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, 2 so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; 3 if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. 7 And for the upright ones he will treasure up practical wisdom; for those walking in integrity he is a shield, 8 by observing the paths of judgment, and he will guard the very way of his loyal ones. 9 In that case you will understand righteousness and judgment and uprightness, the entire course of what is good.
 
(Matthew 7:13-14) 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

As I read posts on the different sites related to the understanding of the bible on the internet, it is readily apparent that understanding the bible's message, from God's point of view, isn't the paramount motive. The words of Jesus, at John 5, cited earlier in this post are having continued fulfillment right up till today, and will continue, I am sure, right up till the end. I write these words in the hope that some will read them and gain a newness in their motive, a dusting off, if you will.

(Revelation 2:1-7) 2 “To the angel of the congregation in Eph′e‧sus write: These are the things that he says who holds the seven stars in his right hand, he who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands, 2 ‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars. 3 You are also showing endurance, and you have borne up for my name’s sake and have not grown weary. 4 Nevertheless, I hold [this] against you, that you have left the love you had at first. 5 “‘Therefore remember from what you have fallen, and repent and do the former deeds. If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Still, you do have this, that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nic‧o‧la′us, which I also hate. 7 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

These are words of encouragement, not egotism. Each ones motive will come to the fore because of them, yours and mine.


sidgi


   

Truth. The truth about what? There are many truths, about many things. It depends on the motive of the one looking for it. Yes, but you say, “I want the whole truth.”  Do you, really? Or do you just want the truth from a certain perspective? Do you want God’s truth? Which God? The God of the Bible, the Koran, or the millions of other named, or nameless gods in this world of mankind? Do you want the truth of accountability? To whom or what are you ultimately accountable? Or, is there no ultimate accountability?

Perception all comes down to the motive of the one perceiving, not only that, but accountability all comes down to motive, to the one initiating; and the motive of the one perceiving. It seems complicated, but it is very simple. It all boils down to one little three letter word, in the English lexicon……why? Why did you do it? Why didn’t you do it? Why did you believe it? Why didn’t you believe it? Motive.

Accountability, requires a set of standards. Ultimate accountability, requires an ultimate set of standards. There are many man made standards, and depending on your residence, or location at any given time, they may vary.  Mankind is subject to the standards of mankind; standards of law, behavior, relationships, etc. Sometimes the accountability has a small price, sometimes a large one, relatively speaking. Motive has a big part in all accountability. The motive of the one holding the account, so to speak, and the motive of the one being held accountable.  Where is the ultimate set of standards to be found? Regardless of mankind’s willingness, or lack there of, to hold themselves ultimately accountable to a higher power, they are held there any way. They are held by the need for oxygen, food, water. They have to deal with gravity, inertia, motion, the weather, sunlight etc. That is a fast and hard truth readily accepted by all reasonable men and women. What about moral accountability, right and wrong, good and bad, useful and frivolous, etc?

Moral accountability, is the area in which motive most often comes in to play. It’s the behavioral aspects in this life that give mankind the most problems. The reason? Motive. Left to their own standards, and own accountability, mankind is always injuring themselves, and others. No matter what the perceived motive, selfishness always wins out in the long run. If there were only one human on the earth, his selfishness would still do harm to the environment, and his own existence. Mankind does not have the capability to even guide his own steps, let alone all of the seemingly great things they are trying to do. Everything men do, results in more trouble. Why? Motive.

Some have said that love is the answer. Love of what? Again, motive. The only thing that can be of benefit in the long run, is love of truth. If truth is loved, then motives are apparent. It is soon discovered who is not a lover of truth, and therefore not to be trusted. But that is only an individual fix, and only protects to the degree that knowledge of a lie protects. Is there an answer, an ultimate set of standards, that can be accepted as truth? There have been many proposed over the years. Most are similar in content, with variations suitable to those recommending them. Again, motive. Where can an unselfish set of motives be found, in a set of standards, that will have long lasting benefits, and not do harm to the environment? There is one, you know. Most are aware of it’s existence. Why isn’t it universally recognized? Motive.



sidgi

 
 

Just a passing thought. Whatever is written here, whilst it is an honest attempt to reconcile understanding with scripture, the responsibility for comprehension and action lies individually with each one of us.


I would hate for someone to quote me as a source for their thinking.

This board is a discussion board, and that means things are put here to discuss. Some things scriptural can be taken as is due to historical and fulfillment, and others need to be looked at and decided upon by individuals.

When we go on a walk, we may walk with others... but the walk is our own effort.

Further discussions on Skype this morning led to an overview of the parable of the 10 virgins. Taking the parable as a whole, the 10 met together for a role when the bridegroom arrived. They had lamps and were required to light them on his arrival. Plenty of warning was given and the job was acknowledged and a certain amount of preparedness ie having oil to burn was a necessity. The 5 foolish turned up with lamps but not enough oil to see them through.

Instead of going off and getting oil, they prefered to wait and fell into a slumber along with the others prior to the brigegrooms arrival. When it was heralded that he was on his way, and to go out and meet them, the 5 virgins without oil pleaded for the others to share. They were encouraged even at this late stage to go and buy some because the 5 with oil needed it to make sure they fulfiled their duties. In the event, on their return from the shopping trip, the door was closed to them.

It would seem they had plenty of time opportunity and counsel prior to even going to the feast to get the oil. For whatever reasons, they chose to ignore the preparation. They turned up and joined in the celebration as is.

No one would know who was wise and who was foolish, until the lamps went out. Only the foolish knew who they were and hid it. This parallels  the parable of the weeds growing in with the wheat and not being sorted until harvest time.

Now as for the motives of the foolish virgins, whether it be lack of caring, a come what may attitude or a reliance on the good nature of others, the end result was the same. The were refused entry to the wedding feast because of their lack of application to the instructions given to them.

Matt 25:34 on discusses the judging that will occur when Jesus comes. His father had already blessed some for their attitude and obedience to his will. These were placed on the right side of Jesus and given life.

The collection of parables in Matthew gives insight to the fairness of Jehovah God in dealing with people. The requirements are out there. It will be apparent who really followed them at the time of Jesus arrival.